ConstructionCalc Forums » Tag: overkill

ConstructionCalc Forums » Tag: overkill - Recent Posts http://www.constructioncalc.com/blog/userforum/tags/overkill Where Builders, Architects, Engineers, and Code Officials Meet en-US Sun, 05 Feb 2012 09:32:08 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://www.constructioncalc.com/blog/userforum/search.php Tim Garrison on "Over-Engineer Kills Project" http://www.constructioncalc.com/blog/userforum/topic/over-engineer-kills-project#post-28 Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:13:52 +0000 Tim Garrison 28@http://www.constructioncalc.com/blog/userforum/ I got a call recently from Stylus R. Ofom, a sales rep for a brand of Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF). “Tim,” he carped, “I’ve got a new high-end home project in San Francisco that an engineer WAY overdesigned. This guy spec’d so much rebar, there’s no room left for the concrete. No contractor will bid the job – and that’s saying something in these tough times. He’s killed the project! I’d call the joker but I’m so hacked right now I’d probably say something I shouldn’t. And besides, you know how certain engineers can never be wrong? I’m in a bad way here. Would you be interested in re-engineering this thing?” Red lights and flags went up in my head. I’ve been down this road before. Were I to say yes, here’s what would likely happen. I’d redo the job and find that the other engineer didn’t know what he was doing. Maybe he’s some government paper pusher moonlighting – it happens all the time. Anyway, when he gets wind that my design used less than half the rebar and 2/3 the concrete, to save face, he attacks me. Now I have to defend my design to the State Board, or, I have to report him to the State Board for practicing outside his area of expertise (it’s law, by the way, that a licensed engineer must rat out any other engineer who violates the state’s ethics rules.) On the other hand, it really gripes me to hear of engineers overdesigning. Not only is it anti-green, it’s hard on projects and gives our profession a black eye. “Tell you what, Sty,” I said. “I’ll look into it for you. What’s this guy’s name and who is the architect?” “The engineer’s name is Tomache Steele and the architect is Cary Granite. Here are their phone numbers.” I called the architect first. After a few pleasantries, I said, “I don’t know if I can help or not, Cary, but the first step is for me to look at the plans. Can you email them over please?” “No problem,” he said. “I’ll also pdf you the calcs. Tomache’s contact information is there but good luck talking to him. It usually takes a few days to get a call back.” “So you’ve worked with him before?” “Yes, several times. Mostly because his fees are low. Someday I’ll learn my lesson though and stop using him. Not only are his designs over-engineered, he’s a terrible communicator, and he’s always several weeks late. Grrrr.” “Roger that. I’ll see what I can do.” “How soon can you look at this?” he said. “We’re just about through plan review with the city and we’re thinking to take the revised design back to them after we have a permit in hand.” “My schedule is pretty open,” I said. “I’ll get back to you as soon as I know something.” The plans popped up on my computer a few minutes later. I’ve engineered many concrete projects over the years, a dozen or more being ICF, and I have never seen such flagrant overkill. Truly, there was at least double the rebar needed and the walls could have been two inches thinner. Greenhorn, I thought. He’s probably some bureaucrat with no real-world experience locked in a sea of cubicles in some non-descript low-rise. Then I looked at the calcs. First, the letterhead identified a small, local private engineering firm. So much for my bureaucrat-in-a-cubicle theory. Second, I was shocked to see “S.E.” under Tomache’s name. This guy is a full-blown structural engineer! If you’re unfamiliar with the title, it means he has not only taken and passed his professional engineer’s license exam, he’s also taken and passed a 2nd exam, a two-day brain buster akin to the bar exam for lawyers. Very few who take it pass it. In fact, only a select few qualify to take the S.E. Having the letters “S.E.” behind your name is a big deal – it places you in elite company among engineers. The calcs themselves were beyond professional, 100% typed – nothing by hand, with computer-generated sketches of every structural element. And thorough? Holy smokes, the guy took more pages just coming up with one seismic force than some engineers take designing an entire building. Top it all off with the fact that the local jurisdiction is the City of San Francisco. Which, last time I did a project there, had an S.E. or two on staff. So Tomache’s calcs have likely already been reviewed by one of his brethren, who would likely frown on a lowly P.E. (me) correcting them. This was not at all what I had anticipated. What to do? What would you do? Here’s what I did. I picked up the phone and called Tomache. In my way of thinking, the best possible outcome would be for him to recognize his overly conservative design and back it down some. There is a name for that, actually, it’s called “value engineering.” And it’s pretty common. In fact certain consultants make their living at it – they’re essentially hired guns who analyze projects and recommend alternate methods to save money. My challenge was to do precisely that without offending. It took three days and several attempts, but finally Tomache called me back. The conversation went better than I expected. He spent several minutes defensively explaining his rationale for all that rebar, particularly in the two walls with all the windows. I listened patiently then made a few calm suggestions which he conceded were worth revisiting, and that possibly he’d been a bit conservative. In the end, his redesign was not as efficient as if another engineer had done it. Still too much concrete and steel, in my opinion. But no one got sued, contractors will bid it, and it will be built. Someday the owners will occupy their nice new ICF home, blissfully ignorant of all this behind-the-scenes drama and that they paid quite a bit more than they should have. Was it the best possible outcome? Maybe. This, for the most part true, tale illuminates several takeaways worth restating: * You generally get what you pay for. * Bad design will cost far more in construction than you saved up front in fees. * A person’s credentials don’t always equate to competence. * Engineers are not created equally. Give any two the same set of plans and they’ll produce two very different designs. This, regardless of the fact that both engineers are bound by the same code. * Sometimes the best solution is not a redo by someone else. Try communication first, always. * Value engineering can be a very good idea. Even if it costs money. Many times the savings realized more than cover the cost, plus it puts another set of qualified eyes on the project and that’s never a bad thing. What about me – how did I make out? Well, monetarily, I didn’t. But I’m okay eating a couple hours to help a distressed project. Also there’s the hope that this architect and sales rep will remember me before hiring Tomache next time. I call it goodwill marketing.